State Senator Daniel Sparks, Chairman, Economic and Workforce Development Committee

First elected to the State Senate in 2019, Senator Sparks has distinguished himself as one of the smartest and most hard-working lawmakers in the building. In this conversation, Senator Sparks discusses the intersection of policy and people, emphasizing the importance of human-centered governance. We explore the dignity of work, economic challenges, education, and criminal justice reform. The episode culminates in an examination of House Bill 585, a measure that was enacted nearly a decade ago, but has never been fully implemented.

Join us for an engaging discussion on legislative priorities and your role in shaping the state's future.

Transcript 

Grant Callen: Welcome to the Empower Podcast, the show where we talk about Mississippi's big challenges and big opportunities. Each episode, we'll talk with lawmakers, policy experts, and community leaders about how we can break down barriers together to create a Mississippi where everyone can rise.

Welcome back, I'm Grant Callen. Delighted for our conversation today. The legislature is in session and I have been looking forward to having some lawmakers in the studio, and today's conversation is featuring Mississippi State Senator Daniel Sparks, you're in for a good one, folks. 

Senator Sparks grew up and lives in Belmont, Mississippi. It's a small town in northeast Mississippi, near the Alabama and Tennessee state line. He's a graduate of Belmont High School. Then he went to the University of Mississippi where he earned a bachelor's degree in accountancy, master's degree in taxation, and a law degree. They like have a wing dedicated to you I think, but he owns his own law practice in Belmont where he serves and serves as a public defender there representing those who cannot afford a lawyer, so thank you for your work on that. He was elected to the state Senate in 2019 and ran unopposed last year, so he's just started his second term. And in a very short amount of time, Senator Sparks has distinguished himself as one of the smartest and hardest working lawmakers in the building. And I'm really glad to have this conversation, been looking forward to it. Senator Sparks, welcome to the show. 

Daniel Sparks: Thank you, Grant you're very kind with your words. I'm excited to be here today and also ready to build on, one term of experience and knowledge and see how that plays into the process because it is a learning curve as with anything else, so we're excited to be here this year. 

Grant Callen: You're one of these guys that, I say works hard because you really dig into the policy and you understand the issues and you're happy to handle bills on the floor. But one of the things that I love about watching you work at the Capitol is you seem like you're having fun. Like you seem like you're a happy warrior and you enjoy this process. Do you like being a state senator?

Daniel Sparks: I love it, I'll be honest the good folks back in Tishomingo, Edelman, Prentiss counties that allow me to come down here and do this job, I think one of the reasons that they were kind enough to send me and send me back is that they know I like to do the work, but I also engage. I understand that there's part of the process that is people, it's policy is very important, but if you cannot contact with people, connect with them to explain your policy, then you may have a great policy that this lonely that dies alone because no one understood it. So I appreciate the compliment, I do like to dig into it, I don't want to tell people things that is not accurate either so that's one of the reasons you do your own research and there's a lot of good people down at the Capitol, a lot of people on the legislative budget side or on the drafting side that really can help you get your numbers together or know what's there but as far as the interaction, I grew up around people who enjoyed being around people and to me that's part of it is because what you're doing every day are, it is affecting people what you do. 

Grant Callen: It certainly is. So you're a lifelong Mississippian attorney, what prompted you to run and get involved in public service?

Daniel Sparks: I would say growing up, I come from a background where my dad was a preacher, my mom taught school in third grade and both grandfathers were preachers, so there's an engagement portion of it to where you're engaged with the community, you're trying to do things that are helpful to others, particularly on an eternal goal, even more than say something in a material nature. But I had worked for a period of time straight out of high school, I went to Northeast for a period of time the community college. And then I worked for seven years before I went back to school. And one of the reasons I went back to school was some of the things I saw in my work career that I thought if I had only known. From an accounting standpoint, if I had only known from a law standpoint, I could have helped the business I worked for, I could have helped someone else so that kind of pushed me into the direction of the law. And after practicing law for several years, there were things that were frustrating that I would say that's not what I think is proper, if I can only change that. The way you change it is in the legislature, so I think it's that combination of a desire to make a positive impact on your community, to help people but also, if you think things are an impediment to what your beliefs are, what your principles are, then you go to where they make the law and so that was a big part of the motivation. 

Grant Callen: So when you think about what Mississippi gets right, And then maybe what do you see is our big challenges? How would you answer those? 

Daniel Sparks: When I say, what do we get right? I literally stopped at the McDonald's just up the road from the studio here and grabbed a quick bite. And there was a gentleman that's here working on our water system. That's from Kansas city. He's standing there, I can tell he's been out working, I didn't know that he wasn't from Jackson proper, and we struck up a conversation, he just got here this week. He talked about how nice the people were, how nice the weather is, how engaging we are, we truly care for one another. We make a lot of mistakes. We're human. We've made historical mistakes. But to me, what I hear from people who come to Mississippi is they talk about our sincere compassion, our sincere appreciation for our fellow man, that there is a welcoming and a warm environment. I think that's one of the most positive things that we have is it shows in our culture, it shows in our music, it shows in our writing, there's so many things about Mississippi and is a often quoted, line, I believe from Faulkner is, to understand the world, you have to understand a place like Mississippi. Then it's very complex, in that we have mistakes, we have our demographic makeup of the state makes us different than how that is regionalized and, in the northeast corner where I'm from is completely different from the Delta. And I surprise people all the time because I was actually born in Cleveland. I was born in the Delta, but our families from northeast Mississippi. And to see then the coast and how that's a different, almost part of the state that has so much influence coming from Louisiana or from, just the French side, the coastal side, we have just a unique state of diversity. And sometimes that's your greatest asset and sometimes it's your greatest challenge, and I think we have a good dose of both. 

Grant Callen: There's no doubt, this is a beautiful state. And, growing up in Laurel, I really didn't know what the Delta was like, and I didn't know what Northeast Mississippi was like. And you start seeing pictures and you go visit Tishomingo state park and you're like, this is in Mississippi? You're part of the state is gorgeous. 

Daniel Sparks: Thank you, I'm partial, but yes we have a lot of visits that come our way and people who have been there and they do, they talk about the state park, the topography, the foothills of the Appalachians if you will, and just a good rural part of the state where it's not a large urban center, it's very rural and economically, and this is one of the things that's unique. I think oftentimes if you look at that Northeast Mississippi corner. And you took certain demographic elements out of it, you wouldn't be able to tell a lot of difference between some of the things historically that have been there versus maybe what's in the Delta or versus what is in some other places, so we have more shared challenges and more things in common often than we realize, but it's a beautiful part of the state and good hard working, self sufficient people.

Grant Callen: Let's jump into a little bit of policy, so the lieutenant governor recently appointed you chairman of the Economic and Workforce Development Committee and, this is a great thing from my standpoint, our three pillars are education, work and justice and I mean in a lot of ways all three of those intersect in different places in that committee, but I'm thinking about particularly under our work pillar we talk a lot about Mississippi's labor force participation rate. And it being one of the, we go back and forth with West Virginia on being the worst labor force participation in the country, which is like low 50s. That just means the percentage of people 16 and up who are actually working. What do you see as the mandate for that committee? And then I know you have talked a lot about this labor force issue, what do you think are some of the, maybe we'll talk about solutions in a minute, but what do you think are the pieces of the challenge that are driving that low labor force rate?

Daniel Sparks: Four years ago when I was running in 19 five now, but. Labor force participation was 56 ish percent, and that was a key focus that I had, I think the lieutenant governor, the governor on down the line, and we're three points lower now that we've been through a global pandemic, we've had some things that are very impactful as far as the state goes. The first thing I thought to do is make sure that I understood and that our committee understood what we were actually dealing with in the last four years we've created accelerate here in Mississippi that I'm sure we'll talk some about that has a lot to do with our workforce training was trying to really focus in on this training and one of the mandates had to do with workforce participation because maybe if we were more skilled, train that we would have a greater participation, but we actually the first thing I did as a committee, we had a hearing and we had the state economist on and had accelerate come, but I had told our state economist, I'm going to want you to drill down into what this number really means, I need a definition. I do not want to fail because we don't understand what we're trying to tackle. That number is created by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, and we base that on surveys, and we're 50th or 49th, no matter what the metric is, but I wanted to understand, and you already touched on it, it is the 16 year old to infinity, there is no cap on that number that is considered in your workforce participation so 16 to as old as someone is living in the state is considered and they look at the employed people and they look at the unemployed people, those two added together are divided by the civilian, so it's not military, non institutionalized, so not people in prison, not people in a nursing home or things of that nature. I ask him to go deeper into that, because we do have, we're probably 20, 22, as far as retirees across the country as far as states, they are counted so someone comes to Mississippi to live on the Gulf Coast, we have a lot of veterans retiring to the Gulf Coast of Mississippi. They technically are hurting our workforce participation rate, but we're proud they're here to want to retire. The second major component we have is, I believe it's about 18. 7 percent disability population. We have the second largest disability population once again, they are counted in the number, but yet they're not working. Then their definition of employed, is working any amount of time for any amount of wage during the period. So my question to the state economist at that point is not only do we have a workforce participation issue that may have some unique things for our state is we probably have a greater underemployed issue than we do unemployed issues. So there are people that are actually working that may count in our number, that aren't actually fulfilling their potential being able to take care of their families, et cetera so one of the biggest things to do is to look and see where are these pockets? Because instead of just trying to move that number, we want to impact communities, we want to impact people, we want to impact their families, accelerate is going to be a driver for a lot of that data creation, because it's hard for me to look at the Bureau of Labor statistics and say. They really understand what's going on in Tishomingo County or Tallahatchie County. We're going to have to do that, we want to work with our local economic developers, we're going to have to work with our local community colleges. And to me, make sure that we are connecting where we have pockets of low workforce participation rate, we have areas of the state that are above the national average, which is only, I believe, 66%. It may be as low as 62. So we've got areas that we can attack, but I want us to be very targeted and not just say if we'll spend a bunch of money on a particular program, maybe it will push the number up. I think that we can do work within the number that's already working to get them upskilled. As well as draw people back into this labor force. One of the biggest metrics that could move it is people who are formerly incarcerated who come into the workforce because they're actually not counted while incarcerated. So that's going to be a big focus as well, coming off of serving with Chairman Barnett on the Corrections Committee the last four years.

Grant Callen: I agree completely. And I want to come back to that number, those that are coming out of prison that need work. It might be worth just reiterating like, why does work matter? And yes, the metric matters because it's a measure that we, you as policymakers can look at to see how we're doing. But at a real human level. Work provides dignity, it provides purpose, it provides a way for people to use their God given gifts to better themselves and provide for their family and provide a service to their community. And when you think about if these numbers are accurate, which we think they are, that there are that many people in our state that are not working. Before I think about the economic problems with that, that affect our state, I just think about the human cost of that many people that are not counted and that are not being able to use their gifts to better their family. 

Daniel Sparks: There's a level of freedom I think, in work as well you mentioned dignity and things of that nature. But often we hear people say I wish I could do this or I wish I could do that. Being able to earn, gives you freedom to make some of those choices and decisions. Often I've made this analysis, is you look at someone who receives an allowance, as a teenager, as a child, maybe I got an allowance from my parents. And if I ran out of money and needed to go back for some more money, I had to give a report of where I had spent the money, or maybe my allowance was restricted, I could only spend it on certain things, or I couldn't go buy ice cream or go to the game room spend it on, a video game. But yet, if I went and earned some money. I might have the freedom to do that and so often on the governmental side, we have way too much of here's a little bit more money from the government. Here's a little bit more money from the government so that you can survive, so that you can have some level of sustainability, but you are then beholden to us to behave as we would encourage you to do, or guess what? We'll take that back to me it's one of the greatest, impacts against your own individual freedom is when you cannot earn on your own and make your own decisions for your family, and that to me is part of the dignity of work that we talk about, but it's the freedom of choice. 

Grant Callen: Yeah, I couldn't have said it better. I had somebody say the other day. In America, we've made poverty survivable, but not escapable. And that's what you're getting at, at times because of our systems and structures, we've created a safety net so that you can't drop too low, and you're going to survive. But we make it real hard to climb out. And the best way I know to climb out is work. And giving somebody a path to have earned success, where we're not hand in somebody something, but we're giving them a path, we're giving them opportunity so that they can better themselves. I've wondered though in Mississippi is, do you think part of it is a cash economy? Where maybe there are people that are working, but because of red tape or regulations or the tax code, people are just doing it below the radar, so they're not measured?

Daniel Sparks: I think there is some of that, probably you could a little bit break down the last few years on sales tax revenue, because no matter whether I work for cash or I receive a W 2 or, a paycheck, when I go to purchase, I have to pay sales tax, you take the inflationary factors out from the last few years, I don't know that you see a huge decline in sales tax revenue even though the workforce participation has declined, so you could draw one conclusion from that is that, yeah, people are working in a manner that's not recorded, if you will, then you get to the point of kind of being underemployed because of whether it's a barrier of a licensure or whether it's a barrier of an education that's needed. I think that exists, I certainly think it's out there, I also think there's a change in focus talking with our community colleges, I get to serve on the universities and colleges committee as well on the Senate side, and we've seen a focus change for about 25 years higher education as a whole pushed everyone to get a four year degree, and probably well intended I think there was some federal intrusion with loan availability and then you ended up with someone who gets a degree and they told that equaled success. And the federal government guaranteed a loan or loaned them the money and they get out in the earning capacity, has not increased significant enough that technically that would be a bad investment, their time and the money that they borrowed to get the degree they obtained does not have the job at the end of it, that the rewards and we finally have gotten past that and I think folks are looking at careers that maybe don't require that for your degree, if you want to go to college, I want you to go to college and have that opportunity. But, we have people coming out of industrial maintenance. Degrees that maybe after two years at a community college are pulling down 75, 80, 000 dollars a year. We also have opportunities we're seeing with some of our economic development projects where people say, look, I need you to have soft skills, I need you to have these functional interactive skills, but we'll teach you the skillset we need on this job market so I do think we have a greater chance moving forward to see people falling into a better earning capacity without being, I don't want to say misdirected because I think it was well intended, that's why the money has been put into career coaches to try to help people identify 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th grade, what do you want to do? What is repulsive to you? We don't want to get you into a pathway where you could complete it but at the end of it it's not success, because you're not happy and you're not earning a wage that you can earn so I think that is key over the next few years particularly, is that we see the impact that we're having on direct to the job market products, whether it's through high school, whether it's through the community college, a combination or IHL institutions, but we need to be focused on what people can make a good living doing and if someone wants to go get a degree in something that does not have great economic potential, and that's their choice, and they have the means to do that wonderful because they may want to study that subject, that's great. But we really need to be focused on, that's how you raise per capita income. That's how you draw more businesses to the state of Mississippi. Is that you have a strong trained or trainable workforce.

Grant Callen: And we have the highest percentage of students going to college of any state in the country, and that doesn't mean they're finishing college, but we have more kids over the last decade that are choose as a per capita that are choosing college. And I think to your point exactly. There are a lot of kids that college is the right path, and there's a lot of kids that it's not. And that because they drop out after the first semester or the second semester when they realize this is really not preparing them. I think one of the maybe unintended consequences of our A through F accountability model in education, where we're grading schools and districts, largely about their academics, and it's largely a college centric approach is that we've de emphasized a lot of this CTE, career technical education, and it basically they emphasized the subjects that kids need to get a job if it's not pushing them towards college. And so like in the current model. I think 5 percent of the model is actually based on, is measured by kids that are participating in CTE program. Do you think that has played a role in the the emphasis of a career path versus college? 

Daniel Sparks: I think that certainly has played a role, but it's those who put the models together. And that's why I say, 30 years ago, I was on campus at Northeast and I had my high school experience today is different, there's so many more opportunities, whether it's online education there's so much information at people's fingertips that was not there, 30 years ago, but our model had really turned to where everyone needed a four year degree therefore, the funding mechanism focuses on that. The accountability model focuses on that. And so even if people were believers 10 years ago, that CTE was the way to go, it's what we should have been focusing on. If it's not incentivized or it's de incentivized, if that's a proper word, that it's not going to get you benefit in your accountability model or your reimbursement and, even with our community colleges, there are things that are reimbursable to that community college and at the end of the day, they have to be good fiscal stewards of their funds, but a career and technical class is simply more expensive than a traditional college track class. If I have 30 students in a, English comp class with one instructor versus eight people in a coding class or in a welding class and that instructor potentially I'm having to pull out of the market, I'm having to pay more for them so not only is, is it not counted for what it should probably in the accountability model in K 12? And I think there are people that are very much working on that. 

Grant Callen: No doubt. 

Daniel Sparks: That are on the education committee that are trying to do things the right way. But at the community college level as well is that we have to understand if we're guiding people, career coaches, are identifying, hey, this is a good pathway, this is what industry is requiring, this is what industry needs or prospectively, we believe this is what industry needs in the future. Then we don't have the slots for them. Or we have made it economically to where the educational institutions say I know you'd like to do that and that seems to be maybe where your best career opportunity would be but how about something else? And we don't want to do that and I know our educators work really hard to do their job and to better the lives of those that are put in front of them. But we missed the forest for the trees for about 25 years as it relates to people making a living versus obtaining a piece of paper. That's a good point.

Grant Callen: So getting back to a sort of another piece of this labor force, you talk about those coming out of prison. You also serve as the vice chairman of Judiciary B, which has to do with our criminal justice system. So maybe just start there, what role do you think are larger than usual, overcrowded justice system has played on our low labor force participation rate?

Daniel Sparks: I think that, a lot of people who are incarcerated are in fact in the prime working age years that you're talking about which are really, pretty much kind of your 18 through 54 age group. But the reasons someone ends up in the criminal justice system can be across the spectrum. But ultimately, once they become in the custody of, and that's when someone gets sentenced, that's exactly what they say, I sent it to you to the custody of the Mississippi Department of Corrections. The key part of that is Mississippi is responsible, because they're in our custody and we're supposed to be correcting. That's the name of our agency. And identifying people on the front end as they come in. Why are you here? What is going on? Do you have an alcohol and drug issue? Did you have an abuse issue in your past? Have you been in generational poverty? You just have to identify it, it's not that you can fix that overnight. But if you do not identify that on their entrance, how can you do anything to correct? And I think we have done a less than stellar job on that piece, in 2014, I believe when House Bill 585 passed, a key component of that was something called presumptive parole. It means that when you came in, you were supposed to be evaluated. You were supposed to be scrutinized. You were supposed to be given a plan to say, this is your success plan. This is how you would achieve exit, because if you're inside, your goal is to be outside. So this is how you were to receive parole. You have to do alcohol and drugs if that's your issue, you don't have a skill, we want to train you, we want to do something here within the system, your behavior needs to be good. You need to get your GED, all of these different component pieces that when your parole date came around, if you had hit every point that was required of you in your case plan, then you were presumed to be paroled, you would have had to have a showing or a reason not to be paroled. And that's been in the law for 10 years now and we are still not doing that as was dictated, and it hurts us because that's another 10 years of people that we miss the opportunity to really do now, there are people that have tried to do some training to work hard in the system, but it was a key component of the parole bill from three years ago was that. The whole point of parole is I have a sentence that is a particular length. I have control over shortening that if I meet the metrics that are here. And those metrics should have been something that made me more likely to be successful when I get out and less likely to commit a new crime, less likely to come back. And we've had too much of a revolving door but part of that, and if I choose to break the law, that there's responsibility that lies with me, that's growing up at home, there was not an appellate system, when I did wrong, there was justice and it was swift. But my concern is that we have not done our part as a state in so many different areas that we could impact the returning and revolving door. And sometimes that leads to generational issues in communities so I think there are people working hard on it, I know that Chairman Barnett at Corrections is again back there and has a lot of programs that he's working with but at the end of the day, it goes back to work. He had a work program, a pilot program that's been very successful. He wants to expand that program. But what goes back to what we talked about at the beginning, what are we really trying to do with someone who has been incarcerated? Have them gainfully employed with a skill, with hope, with an opportunity to pay for the things that they need to pay for. Whether it's fines, restitution, et cetera, but also to be prepared when they get out to be employed to make a living and then have that freedom. 

Grant Callen: Yeah, and that the presumptive parole is such an important driver to all these points, you're giving somebody a road map for how they can shorten their sentence. Do you think the problem, is there more legislation needed to get presumptive parole where it needs to be, or is it more a matter of the implementation of that in the Department of Corrections? 

Daniel Sparks: I think it's implementation, I don't want to shirk the responsibility of the legislature, but passing another law saying do what was ordered to do in 2014 doesn't seem to be almost worth the paper it's written on. I'm leaning into that quite a bit in the role that I have now at economic workforce development because I recognize that is a key metric, a key group of people for this state, that can lift up their circumstance, not only be fiscally responsible for their families, but for the state for their communities but it is something that I just expect it to be done. When we say this needs to be done. Tell me what you're lacking to keep you from doing it. But after 10 years, you're out of reasons, you're out of excuses. You had to have case managers. Someone has to evaluate them, you have to have people in the physical and mental health world, and we are paying significant millions of dollars for the health care side for the other pieces but at intake, I'm not professionally trained in that capacity someone who is at intake has to look at me and say Daniel Sparks, here's what we think he needs to be successful. And if he will follow through this plan, then we're going to give him parole because he's hit all the metrics the professionals have said I needed to hit so if you don't give me a plan on the front end, I as a Inmate in a correctional system am scrambling to do one of three things. I'm doing everything within my power to chase every certificate, every class, every I'll go through alcohol and drug three times because that's three certificates to get, that's not efficient. All I'm trying to do is put points on the board, and not even know how the parole board would view it. Because the beauty of a case plan is for it to be presumptive parole, MDOC has to create it. They then deliver it to the parole board. The parole board checks off and says, Man, if Daniel Sparks does that, he will get parole on his parole day. I'm over here trying to do everything within my power to stay within my plan. But without a plan, you're left to your own devices. And that may mean I chase everything, it may mean I sit and do nothing. Or it may mean that I am trouble and that's pretty much the three categories you get, but all three of them are not what is intended because even the guy who's trying to take every class he can take, I get calls from family saying, Hey, can you see about, my son or my grandson being moved? There's classes over here that are available that shouldn't have to come from a parent or a grandparent. If it's not part of his or her case plan, then it's not pushing them toward presumptive parole. It can be done. It needs to be done, and I'm a little frustrated with that because I think we're spending taxpayer dollars. And if it was some other program that was inefficient, we would be criticized. But because it's corrections, sometimes we just say we'll just have to spend the money because we want to be safe. Being safe doesn't mean throwing money down a hole repeatedly and not impacting the people who come out. 

Grant Callen: And, I think people might be listening and saying isn't just the purpose of prison to punish and we just we're going to house people until their sentence is over and then they get a chance to rebuild their lives, and I would say we got to recognize as a state. 95 percent of the people behind bars are going to get out someday. So it is in our best interest as a state as a community that they come out better than they went in. And for a lot of people that's not been our history as a state, people are going to prison. They're serving their time, they're coming out. It's often worse than they went in. And they're in no better shape to make better choices and rebuild their lives. So having this the presumptive parole isn't just about those last days when you're being paroled, it's about the entire time you're behind bars and giving somebody a roadmap to say this is what success looks like, and this is how you will be given a second chance. And how you will be given the opportunity to demonstrate, you're ready to get out and you're ready to rebuild your lives. 

Daniel Sparks: So I couldn't agree more. And it's a focused resource too, because there are people, many people, and often it gets convoluted when people start talking about folks they're afraid of. And there are many people who are not eligible for parole under any program, they're not given a case plan for parole because they're not even parole eligible, and I do understand there is a purpose on the punishment side, there's a purpose on the segregating yourself from society because of your behavior. There is a punishment piece of this that I do understand. And we will always have to have a place to keep some people away from the rest of the people because they have proven they cannot act properly amongst them, but we're talking about people who are, as you said, coming back into society and as a state, we can choose to house and do nothing. And you know what, the budget's going to go down quite a bit because if we just give up, throw our hands in the air and say all we're going to do is just house people, then they don't need all that money for training, they don't need all that money for, workforce and everything else and we'll just change it to the Department of Housing, Incarcerated Individuals, and not even lie to the public and use the word correction. 

Grant Callen: Yeah, and that's not what we want to do. 

Daniel Sparks: No. 

Grant Callen: So you mentioned parole three years ago, we had a important parole reform that passed was signed into law. You led the fight in the Senate and that parole issue is coming back up for renewal this year. Maybe talk about what was in that bill. And what's being renewed this year? 

Daniel Sparks: Sure and for your listeners they may realize that a lot of laws that get passed particularly when they are very impactful, may not be passed into law forever. Any bill we could come back and tweak the next year, but there's something called a repealer that we put in a bill that unless you reauthorize that particular bill, It would repeal itself. It would go away so there was a repeal or put in this parole bill three years ago. So the action that at the minimum has to take place is to extend that repealer for another period of time. What we did and what our attempt was over the last four years was that we wanted to have a pathway for people who we deem parole eligible, who should have an opportunity for parole to have a pathway, so we brought categories in that a nonviolent offense had a minimum amount of time they had to serve, it's a judge's duty or a jury's duty to sentence someone, but a nonviolent crime after serving 25 percent of your sentence, you were eligible for parole, didn't mean you got released. Of course, if the case plans were being handled properly. It would never be a release that wasn't preordained, that you had actually met all the metrics of the case plan. Pro board had checked off on it. That's the intention. For a crime of violence, and the statutes usually delineate what is a non violent crime, what is a crime of violence, it was 50%. There were a few crimes that were crimes of violence that likely included a weapon, that were at 60 percent so if someone got a 20 year sentence, they were going to serve 12 years no matter if they did everything the parole plan, the case plan had said. So we put a floor in for each of these sentences because there seemed to be a wide variation. But we also gave the inmates that in the past did not believe they had a pathway to parole. A reason to complete a case plan to even have a case plan to invest in themselves to take the classes and to behave, it honestly is something that you do not want to rules violation because it will hurt your chance for parole. But if you tell me I have 20 years and 20 years is what I'll serve, no matter how I behave, my behavior is probably not going to be good. So those were key pieces, there were other pieces that we put in to protect victims in that if it was a crime of violence and that someone was up for parole, that the victim had a right to be heard or their representative to oppose it, so this is still a process none of this was release. It was eligibility to go before the parole board. 

Grant Callen: And it's worth noting on that the murder and sex offenses were excluded. 

Daniel Sparks: That's correct. 

Grant Callen: They're not eligible anyway. 

Daniel Sparks: That's right and we added categories in trafficking, human trafficking and drug trafficking. When you got to that high level that those would be day for day sentences. When someone is not eligible for parole doesn't mean they're have a life sentence, it just means whatever sentence they have received, they're going to do each day of that sentence, they're not going to have it reduced for good time or parole or things of that nature. So the difficulty we had is that as you well know, is that four years ago, during the middle of the pandemic, we actually were seeking a new commissioner in the department of corrections. And then a year and a half after that, we had a new parole board turnover, we had to particularly with the president of the parole board. So I hope that there's not, and I don't think there will be, but I hope that we can extend the repealer on this to allow it to actually work because we've not been doing the case plans as we should. That's not on the fault of the incarcerated, and we've had such turnover at the commissioner's position and the parole board position I think they are now hopefully in a spot, to where they can implement what we intended to do and see what the impact is. And for those that don't know we've had about 19, 000 people, give or take that are incarcerated in the state of Mississippi, the state of Mississippi has in regional jails, prisons, county jails, et cetera and that is one of the highest per capitas in the world. It is a major economic issue that budget is pushing closer to a half a billion dollars for the Department of Corrections, we're into the 400s pretty strong, and It's not and I think you and I had this discussion even when the parole bill was going through, I have never said I want to pass something that releases a certain percentage of people, or we get the population to a particular number. That is not our goal, our goal is rewarding those who earn the right to have parole, we're only making them eligible.

Grant Callen: That's a great distinction. And I think for somebody listening who, if you don't have a family member impacted, You don't have a family member that is either maybe a victim of a violent crime or you have a family member who has been incarcerated. You hear all this and you just think, why does this matter to me? A justice system is something we need, but I don't really want to talk about it, I don't want to hear about it. And I think when you start talking about the number of people impacted by the justice system as a percentage of our population, you just hit on it. We are the highest state in the country. For per capita, the number of people behind bars. The cost to our state financially, and the cost to our communities, the cost to families without fathers or mothers in the home, the cost to people who, it's not just that 19, 000, it's the churn of people in and out of the system. So that today, last number I heard was 1 in 10 Mississippians. 1 in 10 have a felony conviction of our state population. That's a huge driver of that low labor force participation number. So what role does expungement play on this on the back end? Maybe explain what is expungement and how does that fit in it?

Daniel Sparks: The role of the expungement and the way the law reads today is that there are qualifying crimes again, it's mostly nonviolent offenses that once you have finished whatever sentence you're given you have completed your restitution, you've completed your probation. You also have waited five years after the end of the completion of everything you did. You can apply for on the felony side, you can apply for an expungement and it's a one time circumstance. So grand larceny, for instance, theft of funds, theft of money. I make restitution, I may serve time in the penitentiary the Department of Corrections, I get out, I have a post release supervision period of time, and then five years after I've done that and completed everything, I can apply for an expungement. That expungement removes the arrest, it removes the conviction, it removes the event from my life so that legally, in a job interview or an application, I could say I have not ever been convicted of a felony. Now, some people sit back and go that just seems unfair, that seems untrue. That's not beneficial. Once again, they've paid their debt to society. They have done what needed to be done and they are going to continue with that mark for the rest of their life, which does hurt your ability to find housing. It hurts your ability to find employment. So that is what the law is today, is that you're entitled to one now, most people have felony involvement because of drugs. I'm going to say is the lion's share, particularly in our area methamphetamine is ravaged in Northeast Mississippi, but you will have someone who got addicted to methamphetamine. And over a period of time and a lot of families have lived through this, or maybe it's prescription drugs or it's something else. And they have multiple occurrences, where they have been caught in possession of, maybe they were selling it. Maybe they did steal someone's property because they're supporting their habit. None of that is being excused. It is the fact that it's a reality that it happened over a four or five year period. Then that person, is able to whether through treatment or they go to incarceration or one of our intervention courts, our drug courts, and they get their life together. They're ready to be gainfully employed and support their family do all these things, but they have this laundry list of felonies that were committed when they were in this addiction throws.

We don't have a process really to help them if it's close in time, if I had maybe two drug possessions or I had a drug sale and a drug possession at the same time, we can call that one event, get an expungement but there has been a push to try to say. What can we do for people, particularly on nonviolent crimes, mostly on drug crimes to help them once they get past that hurdle, which is a very high hurdle to overcome addiction. Can we do something that helps them function in society? So there is push for that, I understand that there is resistance that some folks say, Hey, that I'll stay with you the rest of their life. Oftentimes folks that say that haven't yet had a family member go through it, so I do want to give people who have moved themselves into a better place, a chance to be successful.

Grant Callen: Yeah and without that opportunity, every crime, every felony does become a life sentence because you carry that with you to the grave. And to your point, the challenges of once you have a felony conviction on your record, the challenges of finding a job, keeping a job, getting a lease, you name it, every single thing you do in life that we take for granted, that is just a matter of paperwork, often requires you to note whether you are a convicted felon. And I love the way you explained it. It is not like we're painting with a broad brush and just eliminating the history from all these people, but it's giving people a path once they have served their time and they've had a waiting period to have a chance to clear their name and rebuild their lives so that every crime doesn't become a life sentence. I think it makes a lot of sense. 

Daniel Sparks: And I think you end up to with repetitive crime that maybe. Wouldn't be crime, but for that, and I'm referring specifically to felon in possession of a weapon. And it is, it really is difficult for me when I see someone who maybe had a felony 5, 10 years ago in their past, it was expungeable. In other words, it was eligible to be expunged and they didn't have it expunged. And for some reason. Later in their life, they have a firearm or a weapon, so we don't realize a knife even can qualify under that, and they get charged with felon in possession of a weapon. Now this person is a two time felon, and they were not using it in the commission of a crime, those strong second amendment advocates might ought to look at the fact that once you've paid your debt to society, is it fair that you cannot even protect your family by having a firearm? So I think that there are other things that we don't really think about not just employability, not just where I can live, get a lease, but that I am criminalized, for future events that are not bad behavior within themselves.

Grant Callen: I really appreciate your leadership on these issues in the Senate on judiciary issues, I think we are making progress, but to your point, we got a long way to go. Are there other bills you're working on this session, that either are coming through your economic committee or judiciary that we haven't talked about that you want to mention?

Daniel Sparks: I probably will, we'll see some legislation that is going to deal with our agencies, boards, and commissions, because you talk about work. And when I got down here, of course, I told you early on, I ran for the legislature because I believe that's where you make law, you don't make law from the bench so you got your judicial branch, you've got your legislative branch, and then you've got your executive branch and so much of what the executive branch does at the federal level and the state level, they do through agencies, boards and commissions. And we do that for their area of expertise, but we do not want the agency board or commission to become an impediment to people being able to work or being able to function, so I think that we will look at some streamlining with our agencies, boards, and commissions. How they're appointed, how they're confirmed, when that happens, the frequency of it. I think those are good to have a refreshing almost of those agencies, boards, and commissions. Because if it's not something that people are doing on a regular basis, some of them haven't met, I've even heard from our secretary of state, I believe that we've had a few that didn't have a quorum. So can you imagine trying to get licensure or trying to get an approval? Or hearing on a matter before board and the board doesn't even have a quorum to meet. So either we need new people on the board, we don't need the board or somebody needs to show up, and those are things that I do want to look at because the thing that touches people's individual lives, day to day, is not always their legislator. It's usually somebody in an agency, a board or commission so we want to make sure that we're good partners with them because I will tell you this. I had a constituent this week and we talk a lot about policy. We talk a lot about legislation. A big part of this job is constituent services, and I had a constituent call this week about an issue Department of Revenue. I picked up the phone, I called the Department of Revenue, got in touch with the right people. They did a wonderful and masterful job helping this constituent with the issue. Got everything resolved. That is part of being a legislator. Sometimes we run for office, we talk about policy, go back to our original starting point. It is about people, and it's that engagement that interaction so I'm very happy to be able to help that constituent and our agencies, boards, and commissions that are helping us help our constituents, I want to help them. But the ones that are more of an impediment, we either need to lead follower, get out of the way.

Grant Callen: I love talking with people who are full of solutions, full of ideas and work hard and you hit the mark on all three. Thank you for coming on. I really enjoyed this conversation.

Daniel Sparks: Thank you for having me. Really enjoyed it.

Grant Callen: Thanks so much for listening to today's episode of the Empower Podcast. To learn more about how you can get involved, and we can work together to make Mississippi a place where everyone can rise. Go to our website at empowerms. org. Please or subscribe on your favorite podcast app so you'll be notified of future episodes.