Grant Callen's Vision for Mississippi

This episode of the Empower Podcast features an in-depth conversation with Grant Callen, the founder and CEO of Empower Mississippi. Grant, a sixth-generation Mississippian, shares his mission to make Mississippi the best place in America to live, work, and raise a family. 

In this episode, hosted by Wil Ervin, Empower SVP, we discuss the role of public policy, educational opportunities, criminal justice reform, and much more. From exploring the potential of Education Savings Accounts to diving into the importance of criminal justice reform, this conversation covers the transformative changes needed in our state. 

If you're curious about how policy can impact our daily lives or are interested in the future of Mississippi, this episode is for you. Tune in for insights, solutions, and unforgettable moments from previous legislative sessions. 

 

Transcript 

Grant Callen: Welcome to the Empower podcast, the show where we talk about Mississippi's big challenges and big opportunities. Each episode, we'll talk with lawmakers, policy experts, and community leaders about how we can break down barriers together to create a Mississippi where everyone can rise. I'm Grant Callen, founder and CEO of Empower Mississippi, where we put people over divisive politics, and work to give voice, and hope to those most impacted by public policy decisions. Listen in to today's episode so you can learn how we can work together to make Mississippi the best place in America to live, work, and raise a family.

Wil Ervin: Ladies and gentlemen, hello, and welcome to the Empower Podcast. I am Will Irvin, Senior Vice President of Empower Mississippi. And I'm honored to be the host for today's show. Joining me today is my boss, but more importantly, my friend, founder and CEO of Empower Mississippi, Mr. Grant Callan. Grant, how are you doing today, buddy? 

Grant Callen: Fantastic. Delighted to be here, looking forward to a great conversation. 

Wil Ervin: I'm really excited to host today's show, but I'm really looking forward to future episodes where you're doing the hosting and talking to state and national experts, who will offer some really great thoughts and perspectives on the issues that affect Mississippians. But for today, I have the privilege of interviewing you. And I think there are two primary questions on the minds of our listeners. Who is Empower Mississippi and why should I listen to this podcast?  

Grant Callen: Yeah, thanks, Will. Empower Mississippi is really a network of people across Mississippi who are all committed to the mission of helping Mississippians rise. Maybe to put a finer point on it, we're a non profit, we're a group of Mississippians between our staff and our board of directors and our volunteers across the state. We're all Mississippians focused on making this state, the greatest place to live, work, and raise a family in America. And we're coming up on our 10 year anniversary, and it's been such an honor to do this work every year alongside Mississippians in every corner of the state. And we tackle challenges in a lot of interesting ways. We really try to get to the root cause of problems, and a lot of our activities result in us working to change public policy at the Capitol, because when you get the policy right, you create an environment where Mississippians can flourish across the state. Not every problem is rooted in a public policy problem, but a lot of them are. And most of our solutions are solutions we take to lawmakers at the Capitol, or we work alongside lawmakers to help them make good policy that will make this a freer, more prosperous, more opportunity rich state for people from all walks of life.

Wil Ervin: Yeah, so tell me a little bit more about your background. You're from Mississippi originally, right?

Grant Callen: That's right. I'm actually a sixth generation Mississippian, so we go way back. I grew up in Laurel and have loved this state since I was young. And, went to Belhaven for undergrad, spent some time in D. C., and really thought I was always interested in politics, was watching presidential debates, and working on campaigns with my dad, who volunteered on a lot of campaigns, and always thought I would move to DC and work in politics up there, and really from the fellowship program that I spent up there was wonderful. I learned a lot, loved being on Capitol Hill, but it really in about six months being out of state convinced me the issues that I care the most about that I think impact people's lives most critically. Are things that we can change in Jackson, we can impact in Mississippi, and so I came back to Mississippi after that short stint in D. C., started a family here and spent first 7 years, 8 years of my career, working for another organization, and it was in the public policy realm and about 10 years ago, worked with entrepreneurs and donors from around the state to found Empower Mississippi. And it's been a great ride and I'm so proud of our progress, but even more than that, I think the opportunities ahead of us are brighter than they've ever been both for empower as an organization and for the state as a whole.

Wil Ervin: So what led you to start Empower Mississippi? Was it a particular issue that you were interested in or an opportunity that you saw?

Grant Callen: I think if you live in Mississippi. You can't help but hear about our challenges and, I just grew up thinking this was God's country. This was the greatest state in the Union, and I didn't really see a lot of those challenges up close growing up. I was in a intact family with two parents who loved me and were involved in our community. And some of our state's biggest challenges didn't impact me personally. So it really was my time in D. C. that I heard what the rest of the country thinks about Mississippi. And not everybody has the same perspective on this state that you and I both love. And we are both, I think, the best state to live, work, and raise a family, we have enormous opportunity, our people and our culture is amazing, but we also have real challenges. And after spending the first part of my career in public policy, talking to people across the state and looking at these challenges up close. I begin to see, and I use this framework a lot, that I think about a third of our citizens in Mississippi are doing really well. About a third are flourishing, prospering, and about two thirds are struggling. It doesn't always break down neatly like that, but when you look at the data, one third of Mississippians have some college, two thirds have none, one third of Mississippians have or live in households that where household income is more than 50, 000 dollars a year. And two thirds of the state make less than that. Now, that doesn't mean you can't be flourishing and you can't lead a great life without either of those making less than 50, 000, not having a college degree, but these are indicators of quality of life of prosperity, and when I look at the data, they're just not enough people in Mississippi that are flourishing. Mississippi works for a lot of people, but it doesn't work for everybody. And so really empower was started to tackle the things that hold people back, both to identify the barriers, and work with stakeholders around the state to find solutions. And so we identified early on 3 barriers, and they have turned into our 3 pillars and our 3 pillars are education, work, and justice. The reason we picked those, these are not the flashiest issues, they're not the issues that you'll hear often talked about on Fox News or sometimes at political rallies. But I think these three issues really matter to Mississippians. And if we get it right, if we make sure every Mississippian has access to a great education, so that they can find meaningful work. And so that people have the opportunity to stay out of the justice system. And if people make a mistake, we give everybody a second chance and the opportunity to rebuild their lives. I think we can create a state where everybody has the opportunity to rise. So that's why we chose those three pillars and why they're so important. 

Wil Ervin: So where does the podcast fit into the work that we do at Empower? And I know as you and I have talked over the last several months. This is something that you've really been excited about as a way to connect with Mississippians, but can you talk a little bit about your vision for the podcast and what listeners can expect in the coming episodes?

Grant Callen: I think one of the reasons this is so important is because it fits into one of our core values and that is we start with curiosity. So unlike some think tanks or advocacy organizations that show up with all the answers, we recognize. The problems facing Mississippi are deep seated. They are generational challenges, and the solutions aren't going to be quick and easy. We really as an organization, we want to do the work that it takes to truly understand root causes. That means we do research, that means we talk with people, that means we look at what other states have done. And maybe most importantly, we talk with people who are impacted by broken systems and bad public policy around the state, people we call stakeholders, so that we understand the ways that broken policies really impact people's lives. So as that is a value that really matters to us, and it influences all the work we do and all our activities, it made sense to say, we're having a lot of these conversations with community leaders and lawmakers and policy experts. Let's start recording these conversations let people across the state listen in to the bright minds and the people on the ground who are working to solve these big challenges. In a lot of ways, this is just going to be an extension of the kind of conversations we're already having every day. We're just going to do it with a microphone and record it and send it out over the podcast.

Wil Ervin: There are a ton of people, both in the state of Mississippi and nationally, who have great perspective to offer. And I'm really excited about the group of guests that we're lining up for the future episodes. I think that's going to be absolutely fantastic. I want to jump back to the pillars for just a second. So you mentioned the 3 pillars that empower has education, work and justice education, specifically. I want to talk about and ask you, what are some of the biggest challenges that you see? Specifically in K through 12 education in Mississippi. And what are some of the opportunities that exist to make the K through 12 education system better? 

Grant Callen: Yeah, so education has really been our cornerstone from the beginning. And even during those early years, it was the only issue we focused on. We knew we were building multiple pillars, but we started with education because it really is a foundational issue. 

I would say education is important for everybody. And largely, people who have some kind of financial resources or access to relationships or networking already have good education options in Mississippi. There are great public schools where kids are thriving, where they're learning, they're being prepared for life. There are great private schools, families are homeschooling. All of that is already happening. And yet, If you don't have the ability to move to a neighborhood with better schools and you can't afford private school and maybe you got two working parents and you can't manage to homeschool your kids, you're stuck with whatever your neighborhood public school is. And like I said, in some places you hit the lottery if you're born in Madison or Ocean Springs or Oxford or pedal or one of these great public school communities, you probably have a great school your kids can attend. But for far too many families across Mississippi, they don't find themselves in a place with access to a great public school, and they can't afford to move to a better neighborhood. I looked up the numbers recently. The median price of a home in Madison is over 400, 000 dollars. So for a family who wants to attend Madison public schools, you've got to be able to buy into one of the wealthiest communities in our state actually is the wealthiest community in our state. And that's a real challenge. Our core value around education really is about making sure every child has access to a great school. And we're really agnostic about type. We're not outselling one type over the other. We want kids to be in great schools and there are great schools of different types, so whether a child is in a homeschool program or a micro school or a magnet school or a private school or a great public school, we simply think every kid is unique and the people that know those kids best, ought to have the tools to match their kids with the best school. And so that's why we talk so much about school choice. It really is a foundational issue to the way we think about the way education should work and the way we can make sure every kid gets access to a great school. 

Now, when you talk about school choice, that often means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. And it's an umbrella term. And it is for us too, but I want to focus specifically on three types of choice. There are other types, but these are the three biggest types that I think hold the most promise for Mississippians. The first type is public school choice. This is the ability to a lot of times it's called cross district transfer, it's called open enrollment, it's the ability to choose a different public school or public district than the one you're residentially assigned to. The second type is charter schools. Charter schools have been in the Mississippi media for the last 10 years. We have charter schools in Mississippi charters are independent public schools. They are publicly funded, they are run by a nonprofit, but they cost nothing. They don't charge tuition, so they cost nothing for parents to attend, and they are not under the school district in their region. So they are independent of the local district. They're accountable to the state charter authorizer board. Mississippi passed a law allowing charters in 2013, but the growth of charters have been very slow in Mississippi. And today we only have 10 that are up and running. Most of those are in Jackson, but we're finally starting to see them open in other parts of the community. The third type of choice that we talk about a lot is private choice. And in Mississippi, that looks like Education Savings Accounts, an ESA. Education Savings Accounts are simply a vehicle to allow public dollars to be controlled by parents. And it allows parents to use the dollars that are already allocated for their kids to choose a private school that will meet your educational needs. Mississippi already has a special needs ESA program, but it's very limited. There's only about 500 students utilizing that program. It's largely because the legislature has kept it really small. There's a waiting list to get into that program but, as school choice is growing around the country, there is increased appetite, increased conversation, increased demand by parents for a universal education savings account, which just means universal eligibility, meaning every kid in Mississippi would be eligible, not just kids that are a particular segment like children with special needs.

Wil Ervin: And there are a lot of states that have moved in that direction recently, right? 

Grant Callen: So really, in the past two years, we've seen huge growth in the number of states that are choosing to pass school choice policies, specifically private choice. Private choice is growing by leaps and bounds. And just this year, we've seen North Carolina pass a universal ESA. Arkansas has. We've seen other types of private choice programs in Oklahoma and Florida and Arizona and Ohio and Iowa, Utah. Really there are 10 states now. That have a universal private choice program, where they let every kid in the state have access to funds so they can choose the best school that meets their needs and for the most part, we're talking about just the state funds. So if you think about the way we fund students in education is a combination of federal, state and local dollars and in all of these programs, the federal money and the local money stays in the district, but these programs allow the state dollars to be controlled by parents so that they can match their student with the best school to meet their needs.

Wil Ervin: And in Mississippi, that would be somewhere around 6, 700 dollars or so per student per year. 

Grant Callen: That's right, all of that will be debated by the legislature, and it'll depend on the legislation. But yes, the state portion is somewhere in that range. 

Wil Ervin: And one of the things that's been interesting to me is to see some of the states who have not yet passed universal ESA programs. They're really talking about it. Texas is. Talking about it right now, Governor Abbott over there has been very outspoken in support of a universal ESA, governor Kay Ivey in Alabama has recently come out and said that she wants to make, Alabama the most school choice friendly state in America. So it seems like there's a lot of momentum specifically in the south and in the southeast around Mississippi. In that direction.

Grant Callen: There absolutely is momentum everywhere, but especially right around us, and I think it's putting a lot of pressure on lawmakers to take action. I was in Olive Branch a couple of weeks ago, and you got parents right across the border from Arkansas who were saying if I live in Arkansas, I can choose what school my kids get to go to, and we can match them with the best setting. We don't have that option in Mississippi. So that's putting pressure. And you're right. Alabama is working on it. Louisiana is working on it. Tennessee already has more options than we do. Texas is working on it. I think it's only a matter of time before it comes here. And I think it would be transformative. The beauty of school choice, and this is one of the reasons I am such a fan of this particular proposal, is that school choice not only helps the kids who opt out of traditional public school and choose another setting. But there is mountains of research and statewide data from states who have done this where we can show school choice actually helps the traditional public schools that these students opt out of. And that's what we want. We want a rising tide that will lift all boats and school choice really is that proposal that will help both the kids who choose something different and the whole system. I'm convinced that would happen in Mississippi.

Wil Ervin: Yeah, so Ed Choice, I think, has put together a lot of that research, but I just saw that recently the American Economic Association just put out a new report that shows that same thing in the state of Florida, that where there is more choice, the students who are in the public schools actually perform better. And I think we see that consistently across the research of private school choices programs. 

Grant Callen: And, states that embrace this. They see that the reason everybody benefits is because it forces every education provider, whether you're public, private, magnet, charter, it forces everybody to be radically focused on the customer. And sometimes we forget who the customer is in education, but the customer is children and families. And if everybody has to meet the needs of students, or else those students can go somewhere else, it ensures that kids get what they need. And that's what we want. I'm not going to tell a family or a student what those kids need. But families know what their kids need, and we want kids to be prepared for life and having a system of choice is the best way to get there. 

Wil Ervin: At Empower Mississippi, we talk a lot about educational fit, and making sure that the school where a child attends fits their individual learning style, meets his or her unique needs and like you mentioned before, Mississippi has a ton of great public schools, but even the best public schools may not be the right fit for every student, even if you live in one of those great districts, like you mentioned a minute ago, there may be a student there who could benefit from a charter school or a micro school or a private school because of the differences in the teaching methods, the learning, the smaller classroom sizes from micro schools and innovations that are offered there. And I think that's something to consider as well, is that fit for the child?

Grant Callen: And I think you don't have to think of the current school landscape as static. When choice is implemented in a state, you see a groundswell of new education options, new schools being created as educators and entrepreneurs and parents come together to start schools that are meeting students needs in unique and innovative ways. And you talk about Florida, just over the last 20 years as Florida has expanded so many of their school choice programs, they've seen 800 new private schools created, and they don't all look the same. These are like dramatically different that look different, whether you're talking about Tallahassee or Tampa or Miami or some of the rural areas, they are created that look different based on the students that they're trying to serve. What's been fascinating to me is in Mississippi, even when our choice programs today are fairly limited they're extremely limited, we've seen a lot of new innovative education options starting and there's been this kind of growth of small private schools called micro schools that are popping up all over the state really since COVID, where parents are seeking out new and innovative ways to make sure their kids get an education. So I think that would just exponentially grow, if families had access to school choice proposals, like an ESA.

Wil Ervin: You mentioned a few minutes ago, the existing ESA program that Mississippi has for students with special needs. And something I want to highlight there, you touched on it, but that program currently is limited to only 400 or 500 students, and there's a waiting list of over 270 families who are waiting to get on that program and that's again, just for students with special needs, there's an incredible demand for that. And at the same time, we see Pierre just recently released a report showing that 700 some odd thousand dollars are being returned to the state in unused ESA funds that seems like a huge problem and something that needs to be addressed. 

Grant Callen: Yeah, I think there's ways to fix that. I think that program has served many kids, and when you talk to families that are in it, they love it. It has been cumbersome to get involved. It's been cumbersome to navigate all the paperwork. And the way that it's funded. Has been a particular challenge for the program because it's not money following the child, it's a line item appropriation that's capped. So even though the demand has grown, the program hasn't grown to meet the demand. We'd like to see as lawmakers are talking about a new ESA that would not be limited to kids with special needs. Let's make sure that's funded in a way that funding is portable. It follows students and is not something where we got to come back and get an appropriation from the legislature every year. 

Wil Ervin: Yeah, we've talked to a ton of families who want to get on that program or who are on the program and have experienced challenges as that program comes up next legislative session for renewal, hopefully that's something that lawmakers will consider and look to address during the next legislative session. 

Grant Callen: Yeah, I think so. I've heard more conversations about this, really, school choice broadly than we have in many years. You may remember in a decade ago, the legislature passed our charter school bill in 2013, this special needs ESA program passed in 2015. We have a dyslexia voucher program that passed around the same time, but largely there's been no new advances in school choice really since 2015, and there was an effort in 2018 that seemed to be growing and had momentum and then it fizzled out and something about COVID that has jump started the conversation about school choice in ways that I've never seen in my lifetime. And I think there's a couple of factors at play. One of those is that parents got a really up close look at what the kids were learning or not learning in their setting. And for some, there were some districts that really were innovative and really worked really hard to make sure their kids didn't miss a beat. And in those districts, kids continue to learn, they continue to get a good education. But in other districts, they just shut down. Or it was a very broken system of sending PDFs by email and virtual was just a complete failure. And so parents saw this is not working, we've got to do something else and the data shows more people left public schools in Mississippi as a percentage of our student population than any state in the country. Like 6 percent of public school enrollment left in between the spring and fall of 2020 and have not come back. Now, we look at the data, homeschooling is way up. Homeschooling is up nationally big time as well, private schooling is way up, but even if you add those two numbers together, it doesn't equal the number that have left public school. So there is a group of parents and students out there that are probably not categorized anywhere, but they have left public school and they're looking for something else. So I think that is contributing to this demand for new options. And like I said, the momentum around the country. People see what's going on in other states. They see the options that families have in our neighboring states that we don't have today. And yeah, there's more. You and I've talked about this, we've had more legislators reach out to us and ask for help with legislation, there's more interest, there's more appetite than we've seen in a long time. And I think that's going to be great for families. 

Wil Ervin: Yeah, it's really exciting. There's obviously a lot of opportunity going into the next legislative session. And we talked a lot about education, and I want to talk a little bit about criminal justice. I think that was the second pillar that was added at Empower as a issue of focus, if you will. What was the rationale behind adding criminal justice? And what connection do you see to Empower's mission? 

Grant Callen: Yeah, so if you're focused on helping people rise, as we are, that's our mission. And you look at what are the barriers? You can't help but see our justice system, for better or worse, ends up being a barrier. It's a barrier as people try to rebuild their lives. It's a barrier for a lot of ways. And for people who are law abiding, at times a broken criminal justice system means that we have more crime than we should. We really, it flew this particular pillar came out of when you have a broken education system. That it leads to a broken justice system and an overcrowded justice system. So our justice initiative is focused on two overarching goals. We want to see less crime. And we want to see fewer people behind bars, and those goals I think a lot of people would think those are at odds with each other that if you want safer communities, you've got to lock more people up. And the evidence just doesn't show that. Now you got to lock the right people up. People that are a danger to their community absolutely have to be behind bars. But a lot of times we are locking people up that have addiction issues that would be served both them and our communities would be served better in a treatment center, getting some help for their addiction, incarceration ought to be a last resort, not a first resort. And so we are spending a lot of time focused on those two metrics. We want to see safer communities, and we want to see fewer people behind bars, and we think there's a way to do it both by impacting Mississippians on the front end. And let's be more discerning about who we put behind bars and then certainly on the back end, as people come out of the prison system, we've got to give people a better opportunity to be successful, a better opportunity to rebuild their lives, a better opportunity to find work and find housing, and a lot of times it's our justice system makes it really hard to rebuild your life after a mistake. And it's in all of our interest that people, when they come out. That they take the steps to rebuild their lives so they don't go back in. 

Wil Ervin: Particularly this session, 

Grant Callen: That's what that pillar is all about. Particularly this session, there's a number of things we're going to be working on. There's been a lot of conversation about the need to improve Mississippi's public defender system, that is, indigent defense. That's our constitution guarantees the right to counsel, whether you can afford it or not and that's a really fundamental part of our American Justice System. And yet, in Mississippi, the Public defender system is not nearly working like it should, and so there's been an ongoing effort to work to improve that we've been a part of. And we think there's a number of, very specific things we could do to make sure the public defender system works better. There's also a parole reform bill that passed three years ago that has really helped to make sure the right people are behind bars. That law is up for renewal this year there's a sunset provision, so we want to make sure it's renewed. There's another, a couple of other things The Fresh Start Act. We want to see more opportunity for people to work, and the Fresh Start Act is focused on removing occupational licensing barriers that have to do with that bar people from certain professions simply because you have a felony conviction. Let's make sure that in every case that makes sense, because there are certainly some professions that if you have a felony conviction, you shouldn't be able to do that work. There's a lot of other professions where we ought to be smoothing the way for people to get back into the workforce. 

Wil Ervin: Yeah, criminal justice to me has been a really challenging issue to try to wrap your brain around, it's almost like an onion. You peel back one layer and there are so many more layers underneath it. I'm glad you mentioned substance use disorder. I think mental health and substance use disorder in Mississippi continue to be a huge challenge. I think I saw a statistic recently that 1 in 13 Mississippians have a felony conviction. Not just a criminal conviction, a felony conviction. More work to be done there, there are more than 400 people that are parole eligible today, but don't have anywhere to go and so they remain in Mississippi prisons. There's just a lot of opportunity and fertile ground, I think in our criminal justice space to, as you talked about safely reduce the prison population and also improve our public safety more broadly.

Grant Callen: Yeah. And this is a good segue for briefly, our work initiative really is focused on how do we get more people in the workforce? So we want a higher labor force participation rates and higher wages. And the truth is. That at least one of the key factors driving our challenges with labor force participation is that number you mentioned there, the number of people with a felony conviction. It doesn't mean you can't find work, but it makes it really hard. So let's make sure that only the things that are really necessary to be a felony conviction get you a felony conviction. And it's a huge challenge and these three pillars really are interconnected in so many ways when you have a broken education system, it leads to a overpopulated justice system, and it makes it really hard to get work when you have a felony conviction, or you don't come out of our education system with the skills and the training and the education you need to work, all three of these are interconnected but they're super important to the Mississippians we talk to every day, and they're super important to the next generation to make sure we create opportunity and we want this place to be as opportunity rich as possible. 

Wil Ervin: Hearing all of that, there is a ton of opportunity to continue to improve Mississippi. What role does Empower play in shaping the policies that impact the lives of Mississippians? 

Grant Callen: It's multifaceted, but sometimes our role is to simply work on identifying the root cause. Sometimes our role is to create and identify the right solution that will address that root cause. Sometimes that role is to actually take it from root cause all the way to the finish line, and the finish line in a lot of cases is taking that idea, bringing it to lawmakers or working alongside lawmakers, sometimes we help draft bills. Sometimes we provide them research and ideas and commentary so that they understand the root cause, why the solution is there, how it would impact, what unintended consequences could be there and then we work alongside lawmakers to make sure the bill gets passed, and then ultimately implemented, right? A lot of times you can pass a good bill, but if it's not implemented you've not actually helped people. So we work alongside lawmakers to pass good policy and like I said, in the beginning, we have a network of Mississippians across the state who engage with us. It's helpful to have lobbyists at the Capitol lawmakers appreciate it. But the most powerful thing is when you get ordinary Mississippians who understand the impact of bad policy engaged in the process, and they come to the Capitol and they join their voices and they get activated about changing Mississippians and changing policy. A lot of the work we do is engaging people around the state so that this network of people trying to help all people rise. Is a lot bigger and a lot more powerful and their voices are heard. 

Wil Ervin: And once legislation gets passed, a lot of times it's up to the agencies to implement those laws and one of the things that's really exciting is the opportunity to work with agencies like the Mississippi Department of Corrections and the Department of Human Services, and some of these other key agencies that really hone in on our particular issue areas to try to provide resources and assistance in implementing those laws the best way possible.

Grant Callen: I think that's right. I think a key role we play is connecting citizens to lawmakers and making sure they have the tools and information and ideas so that they can advocate for themselves. We give a platform to Mississippians who are affected by broken systems and bad policies so that they can tell their story. We do a lot of storytelling where we will sit down with somebody and either write their story up or help them write their story up, or we'll bring a video crew in and interview somebody in a community because the impact of all of this, like policy sometimes can be very distant, but the impact of all of this is on people and people's lives. And if we don't get it right, we really make it hard on people. So we try to engage stakeholders, citizens around the state, ordinary Mississippians, with the information and the ideas so that they can help make this state better. And so that lawmakers have the information they need. And you know what? Lawmakers appreciate it. They want to hear from people in the community. They want to hear from people in their district, who are impacted by broken policies and bad ideas. 

Wil Ervin: Shifting gears a little bit. We just recently had elections. The elections are now behind us. We had primaries in August, had generals earlier in November. It's time to look forward to the 2024 legislative session. Lieutenant Governor Hoosman comes back for another four year term. We'll have a new Speaker of the House as the current House Speaker, Philip Gunn, has elected not to run again. All that said, are you excited about the next four year term?

Grant Callen: I am excited. I think we have a great opportunity. We've got some new lawmakers coming in, and like you said, new leadership, some old leadership, and I'm just encouraged by a lot of the issues that are being talked about in the marketplace of ideas. I think we're going to be able to see lawmakers tackle some really big challenges. I'm excited about working alongside them and interviewing people on this podcast as we go about what's happening at the Capitol so the people across the state, can pull up a chair and see what's going on at their Capitol. 

Wil Ervin: How many years have you been involved with the state legislature now?

Grant Callen: I think this is my 18th in some capacity. Yeah. So it's changed a lot. A lot of lawmakers have come and gone, but there's quite a few that have been there a lot longer than I have. 

Wil Ervin: Do you have a favorite story from any of your previous legislative sessions? 

Grant Callen: I think my favorite story is probably sitting up at the Capitol after midnight in 2013 while member after member was questioning Representative Charles Busby about the charter school bill and we had been working on this for multiple years, and it had died the previous year in kind of dramatic fashion. It came back, and Charles Busby, Representative Busby was a freshman at the time, and he stood in the well for hours and answered question after question. And ultimately the bill passed. It was after midnight. It was a really late night. It was a really fun evening to see the fruition of a lot of work come to pass and to see a law finally enacted and headed to the governor's desk, and we knew the governor at that time, Phil Bryant, was a big fan of charters and it helped champion this change. And we knew that law was going to help a lot of kids and it has. 

Wil Ervin: It's funny that you mentioned that particular night. If I was going to share one of my favorite stories from the previous legislative session, it would be from that night. And I remember very well the debate on the bill getting to, I think it was around nine or ten o'clock that night, and one of the members asked that the bill be read. And so under the rules of the House, and I think it's in the Constitution, the bill has to be read at that point. So it was after midnight, I think, when the bill was completed, the reading was completed. And I think it was probably closer to 1 or 1 30 in the morning, that the bill actually passed. It was a long night, I think, for everybody involved.

Grant Callen: But the votes were there and it passed, it's interesting, I actually think there's a real effort this year to see improvements to that law. We've now had 10 years of charters. We've learned what works, what needs to change, and I think there's going to be some great reforms proposed that would help entrepreneurs open charters and help educators open charters and help more kids have access to charters and more communities. So I'm excited about watching that.

Wil Ervin: I think we just had the first charter school high school in the state opened earlier this year, didn't we? 

Grant Callen: That's right, in Clarksdale. We've had elementary and middle schools around the state, but Clarksdale Collegiate, run by founder Amanda Johnson. Got approved to open a high school, a charter high school in Clarksdale, and it's going to be life changing for a lot of kids. She's a great school leader and has really proved that she can give kids a great education in her elementary and middle school, and now those kids will have a place to go into the charter school, and it's going to be great to watch as kids graduate from a charter high school in Mississippi and go on to college and great careers and we have stories of adults who came through the charter system in Mississippi. 

Wil Ervin: That's really exciting. Going back to the legislature for a second. Do you have a favorite lawmaker? 

Grant Callen: Oh, I have many favorite lawmakers, but I'm not going to name any.

Wil Ervin: Trick question. They're all your favorite. 

Grant Callen: That's right.

Wil Ervin: With everything we've talked about today, I imagine that there are many Mississippians who would be interested in getting involved to help enact some of the policies, and address some of the issues that you've described today. So for those who may want to get involved, what are some of the ways they can do that?

Grant Callen: Yeah, nothing happens because you or I at the Capitol or lawmakers work really hard, it's going to happen because parents and business leaders and citizens around the state get engaged in the process, and so we're here to help facilitate that. We want your help. You can go to empowerms. org, our website, sign up for our updates. You can get information about how to become an ambassador for us. Let us tell your story, how to get engaged, we have lots of ways for you to get engaged and follow along as the legislature progresses. 

Wil Ervin: That's all for today's episode. Grant, it's always a pleasure. Thanks for taking the time to speak with us today.

Grant Callen: Enjoyed it.

Thanks so much for listening to today's episode of the empower podcast to learn more about how you can get involved and we can work together to make Mississippi be a place where everyone can rise. Go to our website at empowerms.org. Please or subscribe on your favorite podcast app, so you'll be notified of future episodes.